Back in “Easter thoughts” Mikey brought up some really interesting thoughts on salvation that I would love to discuss more. So what do you all think salvation is? and what does salvation mean? Here are a few questions, feel free to share your thoughts on one or more of these; I would love to hear what you all think….
1. Is salvation a moment in time or a process?
2. Are certain practices of faith required or even enable us to be ‘saved’? e.g. sinners prayer, infant baptism, baptism (water, holy spirit) etc.
3. What is salvation? How does salvation relate to the afterlife? (what is heaven/hell probably another whole discussion more thinking does being saved mean we will be with God in afterlife)
4. Is it possible to be ‘saved’ if you are a devout follower of God through another Faith or simply people “who reflect a fantastic humanity….(ref. Mikey, Easter Thoughts)"?
5. Maybe this is another discussion topic but I would love to know what we all think about what Jesus death and resurrection did to enable salvation (yes, atonement theory people). I have been grappling with this one since "Easter thoughts" and would be grateful for your input. E.g. Jesus paid the debt of our sins, Jesus conquered sin and death, Jesus restored honor etc.
Any other thoughts/questions on salvation welcome, cheers J
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So there hasn’t been a overwhelming response to the last couple of threads, so I thought I would try and keep the dialog going even if it is with myself…. (see Blogging).
In reflection of salvation one of the things I struggle with the most is that salvation can come across as a who’s In and who’s Out thing. E.G. who’s going to heaven/who’s not, who’s a Christian/who’s not, who’s saved/who’s not (there was a teen movie a while back called ‘Saved’ I think it portrayed this idea quite well). I think that this notion of “saved” is a relatively modern western one that implies there is some sort of set of rules or formula that someone can follow to become saved.
I personally now feel that salvation is more a journey, rather than an act or set of acts (sinners prayer, baptism etc) that cause a person to be ‘saved’. However I do think that some so those acts (or practices of faith) can really add to the journey. I think they can be both deeply symbolic and in some cases people can have a real ‘spiritual’ impact/encounter which adds to their journey.
I am not 100% sure if this is true but I once heard someone talking about the early church and what it meant to be a Christian. What they were saying is that historically in the early church becoming a Christian (or salvation) was a journey that was done through relationship. For a start you needed a sponsor to vouch for you and bring you in to meet other ‘seekers’. From there you could only join a group of believers by the initiation rite of baptism. It was only after baptism that they could begin to learn about prayer, discuss the teaching of Jesus together etc. Granted they were under heavy persecution and if they were ousted they would be killed for their faith, so they couldn’t let any old spy join them. But what I took from it was the idea of having someone to sponsor and journey with you in the different stages of your faith is helpful and that maybe we shouldn’t be too concerned about the order of certain acts or if they even occur at all (I don’t think they had a sinners prayer or even used the word salvation, correct me if I am wrong but I don’t think salvation is a biblical term).
That’s me for now, if you agree/disagree or would just like to pose another question or comment to make us all think, post it, I look forward to reading your thoughts… J
Salvation,
It's definately an interesting one! Something that I thought about quite a bit awhile ago when I came to OB and found a few people here that live lives that to me seem very Godly, and seem to be in connection with God and love etc. and I was thinking - who am I to say that they are not 'saved'?
It got me to wondering, just becasue, yes Jesus did open the way for us to be reunited or connected in some way to God - does everyone need to aknowledge Jesus on the way through the gates as such, or can we just accept that they way is now open and enjoy that?
If salvation is a moment not a process I certainly can't pinpoint that time for me... and that idea raises huge issues with kids, disabled people etc. etc. I guess for me it comes down to only God knows our hearts.
Hey Amy, how do you mean that it raises issues for disabled people and kids?
Yeah and what about baptism? That is such a funny one I reckon. It seems to be one of those things that us moderns (even the not so fundy ones) hold as pretty important. We claim that it has good biblical grounds. And it does I guess. But it just seems such a symbolic thing, and I wonder about a such a symbolic thing being a necessary pre thing to salvation.
As far as what you just said Amy about our need to acknowledge Jesus. That makes me think that Universalism is a real attractive option. I remember hearing about one pretty orthodox theologian describing himself as a hopeful universalist (Karl Barth).
Hey Amy, I liked your thoughts on Jesus making "the Way" rather than being the exclusive vehicle to reach for God. When you say 'saved' do you mean going to heaven? I am not 100% on what I think it means to be 'saved' or even if/what Heaven and Hell is/will be. For me I think salvation has a lot to rejecting evil (social and individual sins) and turning to God. I think this leaves scope for God to reach people where ever and however God can. I do think Jesus offers the ultimate way to God and that is why I still desire and get excited about dialoging with people who are not Christians about my faith. I do believe that Jesus offers a burden shared and that true Christianity offers hope, restitution, peace and freedom.
I also agree that it is difficult for children and mentally impaired people to have the cognitive abilities to chose to follow certain practices like the “sinners pray” or baptism.
Hey Mark, just wondering if you could expand a little on your thoughts of universalism, I don’t know very much about that. Does it refer to all faiths lead to God or all people are saved through Jesus or simply all people go to heaven? Cheers, J
So we have not had any dialog on atonement theory yet, so I thought I would kick it off. Like I said I have been thinking about this one a little lately, what strikes me is that there are quite a few theologies in Christianity that I have given little or no thought to. As a result I have accepted the “party line” or practically anything preached from the front that were based on theologies I never even knew existed. With Atonement theory that was definitely the case.
What I have come to realize is how some of these core theologies have major impact on how I think about God, creation, people and what it means to be Christian. Often I used to put these ideas in the “who knows” and “too hard basket” and thought “what is the point, anyway”. But now I believe it is important for me to have some basic understanding of what is the range of thinking out there, where these ideas have come from and what impact these ideas have on me. I have also been in the embarrassing position when people of other faiths and creeds know more about the theologies of my faith than I do, which is a bit problematic.
So atonement theory… before I start I have to say I am no theologian, I have never done any official study so what follows is extremely simplified and based on very limited reading. If you are interested ask Christina for some suggested reading or research some yourself.
Basically what I used to believe was in fact a whole mix of different theologies, which included Jesus paying a debt owed to Satan for my sins (Ransom theory), that God needed a perfect sacrifice so that The Law could be fulfilled (Satisfaction Theory)etc. I think there is some good here in that we serve a just God and it highlights for me the impact of my sins. However I feel uneasy that these theories imply that God the Father had a part to play in sending and punishing His Son to death and that God somehow trapped/tricked and bound Themselves to fulfilling a perfect Law They created. It is funny how these theories pop into our language (especially at Easter or communion times) like “Jesus paid for our sins”. These theories also seem to validate the view of God with a stick who has to punish, has to send people to an eternal damnation in order to remain perfect.
I think the theory I now most identify with, is that Jesus came to earth and conquered over sin, death and the Law (Christus Victor Theory). In this I see God as a Trinitarian whole working together to overcome the separation caused by the “original sin”. In this I can accept that humanity was given free will, chose to sin and that sin brought into effect the Law, which meant death, impurity and separation of God, that God desiring relationship and restoration with Their creation conquered over the Law, sin and death to bring wholeness again.
Well that's it for now, I know another long winded one. I would be keen to hear your thoughts on this and at some time look at other theologies which we often take as givens like... the knowledge of God, creation and how these theologies effect our thinking as a whole.
J
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