- Why did easter even need to happen?
- Do we take this story completely literally?
- If he ( Jesus) knew that it had to happen that way, why did he bother praying for it to be able to happen another way? and why did he say " God whhy have you forsken me?" if he knew it was all partof the master plan?
- What is the significance of the focus of the Disciples falling asleep?
- What is the most significant part of easter for people? ( personally I mean)
And then after that, I was thinking about the origins of communion, and how it really just seems to actually be the last meal they had together ( admittedly as part of passover festival) that he said remember me.... when did it turn into this thing that we do as part of a church service? wasn't bread and wine a typical meal for them then? are we supposed to take it like that literally bread and wine or just when we eat meals???
So what are everyones thoughts on Easter and Communion?
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11 comments:
One of the significant things for me about Easter is when the curtain to the Holy of Holies rips which signifies to be that I can enter the Holy of Holies and have a relationship with God directly... not quite sure why it had to happen with Jesus dying and all that - well actually there is all that stuff about blood atonement for sins and how that used to be with animals and high priests and Jesus now being our high priest etc. but why was it all like that in the first place??who knows? anyway, I reckon it's pretty significant that that curtian was ripped and we now have access.
The other cool thing I reckon was the whole example of Jesus Servanthood leadership and humbleness of being willing to sacrifice himself for others...
Wow, first post and you have managed to strike two topics of significant debt in the church. Specifically what did Jesus do on the cross (atonement: did he pay for our sins, was it to build a bridge between us and God etc.) and is there another way. Secondarily, what does it mean that Jesus was God incarnate (fully human, fully God) and what is the knowledge of God anyway? Does God know everything that will happen from now until eternality? What does that mean for free will? I am going to have a think right now but I will try and put down some thoughts over the next couple of days.
What I think... well to start with I do believe the Easter story in a fairly literal understanding. I believe that Jesus was on earth and was God incarnate, that he was tortured, died on a crucifix, rose from the dead and that in doing so changed our access to God somehow. I also love the symbolism of the curtain ripping I think it is a powerful part of the story, I also love the times after Jesus has risen and he reveals himself to his friends and restores their shattered faith I can relate to that.
I am not so sure about many of your other thoughts but I’ll have a go... I believe that something had to happen in order for humans to be able to be in commune with God. I think that God coming to earth was hugely polarizing to the thinking of the day, from gods that were beings in the sky and were to be feared, to a God that wanted to commune with us and understood our struggles. I think Easter continued that change of thinking that instead of a powerful ruler Jesus showed humility and servitude. I also think Easter gave people a new framework to understand God’s forgiveness but was still within a context they could understand (although a little left of field) animal vs God sacrifice. So what am I saying… I think that what Jesus did on the cross is a powerful and enduring symbol and has huge meaning to me today. I think that God needed to do something to enable communion with humans and that Easter had an impact at a human understanding level and possibly a spiritual realm level. However if God’s first coming to earth was today I am sure that it would be very different and would somehow relate to our context today, although it would still be polarizing and left of field. I think God always attempts to relate to us in a context we can understand, which is probably why the “old covenant” involved priests and scarifies because that was the culture and historical structure of the day. However in relating to us I think God always tries to stretch our thinking e.g. I am the one true God, you will have no other God’s except me (stretching). With the contextual, I will give you a land flowing with milk and honey (through mass genocide, which was the cultural norm of the day). Any way enough ramblings for now what do other people think?...
Why dont you just come out with the Big Guns Amy?? Great questions and discussion, you'll be relieved I won't try and respond to it all!
However, as I consider why Easter needed to happen and what it is to me (simplest place to start), I have all sorts of classical Christian thought come to mind. That we needed a sacrifice and that Jesus paid for our sins etc. Which is, I believe, true. But how do we make that real after the moment (which is actually perhaps more a process than a moment) of "conversion", when these things that appeared so pertinent, now can feel so distant?
I find it helpful to consider what Jesus says he wants to take from me, alleviate the burden of. To reflect on the specificity of "sins" I choose %^&**, ()&*^%$, 0987*&(^ (yes, only three!) makes it somehow more real and keeps me to some degree vulnerable with God. Within that I sometimes feel understood and known, sometmes loved and accepted, sometimes nothing. At Easter I'm reminded that God is vulnerable, comes close and is interested.
Some other thoughts this brings to mind, is inspiration taken from Dr Mark Strom (Laidlaw College)). He suggests the important thing is that Jesus did not come in fact to make us christians, but to make us human!! This is revolutionary for me - it resonates deeply that being human is a GOOD thing.....and GOD LOVES WHO HUMANS ARE!! We are told that somehow, Jesus death and resurrection at Easter, allows us to experience this humanity more fully as we are changed via the HS. Understand the concept, but not the outworking of this one! What's even more intersting is seeing people who have not said the sinners prayer reflecting a fantastic humanity...that is good. I believe these people experience God without having jumped through the hoops, so why are the hoops important for us to jump through?
Time to sign off. Thanks for the questions and discussion and hope you can make some semse of my ramblings.
In regards to the significance of the disclpies falling asleep - think they had partaken in a rather heavy Merlot and were experiencing the after effects. Lessons to be learned - always hydrate!!
I don't know about anyone else but I've always had a bit of a problem with idea that God is bound by the Law and had to pay Satan, that God the Father was somehow responsible for killing His Son...??
I'm gonna pick up on your third point:
"If he ( Jesus) knew that it had to happen that way, why did he bother praying for it to be able to happen another way? and why did he say " God whhy have you forsken me?" if he knew it was all partof the master plan?"
I feel pretty strongly that Jesus didn't fully know what was going to happen, or what 'had to' happen, that he was probably terrified by what actually did happen to him, and that the trauma of what happened to him probably really did feel like God abandoning him. I think he was hoping he wouldn’t have to endure the trauma he suspected was coming his way. If Jesus was fully human how could he not experience these feelings – even if he knew to some degree that it was necessary and that he did so willingly?
It’s kind of reminding me of child birth right now! When it’s your first baby you know its gotta come out, but you have no idea what actually going to happen. there are so many variables, and there’s no way you can even begin to imagine the pain until you experience it. And I hate to say it but even though you know it needs to happen, you want the pain to stop more than anything in the world. maybe that’s kind of what he experienced? just even way more intense!
God willingly subjecting herself to the trauma and weakness of humans is the most astonishing thing about the easter story if you ask me. Surely there were other options to redeem creation?
point 4...they were all men weren't they???
ok jared - i get what you're saying about God needing to commune with us, in a way that is both relevant to our time but also remarkably 'left of field', but its reminded me that it seems that the timing of Jesus' death was also very significant historically. how important was timing then? could it have happened at another time/place?
Yeah Christina, I agree the timing was critical and I think that humanity was really starting to explore ideas of faith and philosophy. And although the institutions of faith inevitably resisted change the people were ready to embrace something new. I also think that the cross was the ultimate way God could redeem creation in that time and that the symbolism is still very relevant today. My thoughts on "context" related to the question could God have redeemed creation in another way. I think God could have then and most definitely would have done things differently in another time.
By the way Mikey I really liked your thoughts on salvation and what it is to be a christian - 'perhaps more a process than a moment) of "conversion"' AND 'What's even more intersting is seeing people who have not said the sinners prayer reflecting a fantastic humanity...that is good. I believe these people experience God without having jumped through the hoops, so why are the hoops important for us to jump through?'. I think it would make a good start to a new discussion stream, would you be keen to start one up based around this or could I borrow your thoughts to start one? Also to all followers and authors on this blog it would be nice to know a little about who you are and how we got here even just last name. It would be kind of nice to know who we are hanging out with in cyberspace. cheers J
Wow! some great thoughts, its a bit hard to know where to start isn't it?!
It's a great reminder to think of Easter in it's time - As you say, left field but probably a bit more understandable for them?? maybe....and might possibly look different if it was to happen now.
Christina, interesting the point you raise about not knowing what is going to happen? it would definately seem to make sense the way you described it - but if he is fully God, and God is outside of time and know's what is going to happen, how could he not know? but I really like the way you have put it...
I agree with you Jared about starting a new thread with those thoughts, would be interesting. Good idea. In fact I'm going to start a new one myself aswell...
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